Sergio Martins May 2002

Interview by Sean Barlow

São Paulo,2002

Sergio Martins, music writer for Veja Magazine

Afropop Worldwide's Sean Barlow and a group of international music journalists including Jeff Kaliss and Michael Pilz visited São Paulo based music writer Sergio Martins at Veja (Brazil's largest weekly magazine) at the end of a three city visit to Brazil. Martins' opinionated comments gave us insights into the dynamics of the Brazilian music and media industries today.

Jeff Kallis: When people listen to the radio in Brazil, what kind of music do they hear?
Sergio Martins: The worst music possible! Just pick up some radio in Brazil and listen to that. You have some great exceptions like Eldorado (São Paulo) or 97 which plays only Brazilian popular music but you don't hear artists like Lenine and Max de Castro. They don't have space here in Brazil. Max de Castro I believe that he sold more records in the United States that he recently released than in Brazil. I believe that in Brazil he sold about 4,000 copies of the CD in Brazil and 30,000 in the US.

Sean Barlow: Is that just payola or…?
SM: You said it. It's not just the payola. I believe that it happens all over the world…The problem in Brazil is that you have a large sale of those more popular or more commercial songs but you don't have enough space for more cerebral music. More sophisticated music. You don't have space. You don't see them performing live much. And the record companies have a big crisis. So they are not hiring these kinds of artists right now. They just want the kinds of artists that will make one record and sell it good and sell it well and if the second record is not successful dump the artist and hire another sensation and another sensation and so forth.

Michael Pilz: The majority of Brazilians would buy recording of Lenine for example if they did hear him on the radio or Max de Castro?
SM: I think people need to know these artists. They don't know. They need to listen to those artists, to listen to them on the radio.

MP: But do you think they would like him?
SM: Yes, why not?

MP: Because maybe it is too sophisticated for the majority.
SM: The majority likes good music. But they must have access to the music. It's like a special dish for example. In Brazil we have the dish that you say is commercial. It's rice, beans, meat, and salad. If you eat a commercial dish every day you can satisfy. But instead of eating the commercial, if you give him a more sophisticated dish, the first time he'll think it's strange, the second, well this tastes good and the third, he'll love it!

JK: When you're talking about MPB, MPB is different from?
SM: No, when I talk about commercial, I talk about music with I think not so good quality. Made just to sell, every artist wants to sell records if Nação Zumbi record a record and say this is not for the people, they are lying. I believe the artists were born for selling records. Now a days we have some artists they are more . . . I can I say about this term. I wouldn't say commercial but I would say um, the songs of the artists they have a date to expire. There are no songs to last for example. I believe if you buy today Max de Castro it could last 10 days, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years. For example Bebel Gilberto was a great sensation singing the songs of her father and Vinicius de Morais. The kind of artists that we have now and they are selling fast and playing on the radio you won't stand him in the next year. For example É O Tchan sold 3 Million copies in 1995. Today you can find those records that sold 3 million copies in the used record markets but nobody wants to buy it because it's old. It's not in the mood, it's not fashion. That's the problem….The most important thing for a record company is to have a good catalogue. For example Caetano Veloso wasn't a great record seller. I believe he just sold 1 million copies 2 years ago. His records didn't sell very well but they sell constantly. You will always have a young boy who is interested or saw a concert of Caetano, heard Tropicalia and says wow! On what record can I find this song? He'll buy the first record of Caetano and the second one. This is an example of a great catalogue, right?

SB: Which musicians in Brazil are you interested in writing about right now?
SM: Wow. I just heard a Paulina Agueira CD playing Chico Buarque music. I think Pedro Mariana is a good singer, I'm looking forward to the new CD from Max de Castro. I think he is a great artist. And I also think it is a beautiful work that Marisa Monte did with Adimir de Patrocinio and Jair do Cavaquinho. I'm very interested in the Moacir Santos legacy I think that's fantastic. Moacir Santos? You bought the Ouro Negro CD? It's imperative. It's some kind of Brazilian jazz. He was once called the Brazilian Duke Ellington by the American press. Moacir Santos is a great story because he is a jazz player and he was some kind of master for Baden Powell and Vinicius de Morais. He gave lessons of harmony and composition to those. In 1967 he went to San Francisco and he never came back to Brazil. And two Brazilian instrumentalists Mario Adenir and Zé Nogeira they took all the works, the charts of Moacir Santos and did a double album of the work…The new fashion of the record companies is to make contests of the singers and then record them. And the music is the worst as possible…You can imagine versions of Whitney Houston songs sung in Portuguese. That's what they do. Versions of Gloria Gaynor, couples in opera styles imitating Sarah Brightman. That's what they have and they sold almost a million copies.

JK: In terms of MPB, are the younger artists going to have staying power?
SM: I hope those people stay. We have to give a chance to them. Caetano Gil and Milton Nascimento have had years and years to become who they are. If you sell your soul, you can do well (in the short term) but you lose your credibility…The only band I remember that confronted an artistic director is Skank in 1994. They did an independent CD, was sold to Sony music and sold about 150,000 copies but Sony wasn't satisfied. Daniella Mercury had sold a million copies. The artistic director suggested a cover of a Gil song etc. And they stood by their work. It is rare for artists to be like that. When Chico Science was hired for Sony music he had the meeting with the artistic director who said I see you as a sensation next Caetano etc., you are great, you are wonderful. The first album went platinum. For the second album the same director said so, you are selling a lot out of Brazil but for me you are bullshit because your record doesn't sell in Brazil. In the Brazilian market you're nothing so we will do it the way I want and you will not say anything. That's how the record companies are.

SB: What did Chico Science say?
SM: (Laughs) Okay. He was cheated by the record company. SO they recorded the album and without Chico knowing there were four remixes made with a Brazilian DJ.

MP: But I think it is a global problem. I know there's the same problem in America and Europe too.
SM: Yes. Here it is worse though. You don't have space and you don't have time…I like to say that MPB can be divided in good music and bad music. Good music can be a good samba reggae, axe etc. Bad music you can find even in Gal Costa or Milton Nascimento.

SB: I'm interested in the phenomenon of forró in São Paulo here.

SM: The college forró? The funny thing is that this is not the Northeastern scene, the bands are from São Paulo and Rio. It was something that began with the upper classes in São Paulo. If you go to the upper classes in São Paulo you find young people who want to discover their roots, the beauty of Brazilian popular music. And what is that? It's the forró. There are some bands that play forrós in São Paulo and those concerts were followed by teenagers and young people in the universities. That's why they call it college forró. The first audiences were from colleges and universities and now it is spreading all over.

SB: What are the two or three top college Forró groups?

SM: Oh it's Falamansa. Falamansa In São Paulo, You have the Forróçacana in Rio and you have Rastapé. I think they are the three big ones. The funny thing is this kind of group is very popular but the traditional kind of follower of forró does not listen to this kind of roots forró anymore. They are listening to more electronic bands doing Forró. One of these musicians is Frank Aguiar called the cãozinho of the teclados (keyboards)…But Frank Aguiar plays a like electronic forró with keyboards and uh we critics, we journalists like to say that he's our electronic revolution, it's not drum and bass. It's Frank Aguiar he plays electronic forró with keyboards and drum machines. And people call him the little dog (Caozinho) from the keyboards because he does a scream, "Owww! Owww!"

SB: What about the working class people who migrated to Sao Paulo from the Northeast, like the maids and taxi drivers and so on? When they go out on a Friday night.when they get their paycheck.
SM: They go see Frank Aguiar! He is the leader of these masses, not Falamansa. Falamansa, that's the funny thing. So Falamansa, the boys are pretty so that's the reason of their popularity. But the usual follower of forró, he's not listening to this anymore. He's not even listening to Dominginhos. That's great. He listens to Frank Aguiar, or that new band, Mastruz Com Leite. They mix forró with guitar and axé music. That's what the people want to listen to. And Franke Aguiar has a great marketing strategy against bootlegging. In his contract he demands that his record can not be sold for more than 12 reals (about $5) because his audience is very poor and if it's 20 reals, his audience will go to the bootlegger and buy it for 4. It reminds me a lot of the Jamaican scene. He tries to fight bootlegging. He spends just three days in the studio (making his records).