DJ Spoko: One two one two. DJ Spoko in the house.
Sam Backer: So how's it going? It's good to see you in New York again.
Yes, yes, yes, it's great to be back in New York again. It's good to see you again, Sam.
So since we last talked the album came out, The War God, and then Fantasma [album, Free Love].
Yes. Everything came out like as I promised, that the War God is gonna come out [something] the disease, they did come out. So, I've been spreading the disease all this time. So the Fantasma Free Love album, and the EP, the Eye of the Sun EP's out, so everything that I promise, man! I did deliver. And I promised that I'll be back - I'm back! [laughs]
So let's start, let's talk about Fantasma some, because it was still kind of in the planning stages when we last talked. How did that happen? How did you get hooked up?
1:26 You know when you start making promises, you must already have a plan. So when I was telling you we're like starting, but I knew it, cause I believed in the band, you know? That this gonna work. I mean it's not like just a couple of bunch of guys trying to something. It's like those people who are there, Spoek Mathambo is there, you know. Andre is from the band Machineri in Cape Town, the biggest band 1:54 of rock. And then Bravegi is one of the biggest places of Bacanga [??] and he's got his own thing going down in that. Mike, he plays the drums for churches, the big churches of South Africa. So it's DJ Spoko, you know? The Empire of Pretoria. So when we connected, we just like start working. We can't be rehearsing. We start working. Each and every man, he knows his job. Each and everyone knows, we had snipers. We didn't want like police or military guys - snipers, shoot to kill. Hit the head. You know? We don't play around.
I didn't realize the drummer drummed for churches.
Mike, we founded him after we did release the EP, starting to perform. Because, as I said, we're all snipers; we said, "No, something is missing. We need the escape plan." Always, when we do our mission, we don't have the way to get out of the seat, so we need the transporter, you know? So that's when we find the drummer. Because that's what was missing. We were playing like digital drums, on a sampler. That was not what we wanted. We wanted real drums. Me, I'll come with the sampler and add my snares on top, you know. So it work out. It work out, man.
So and you were working with Jumping Back Slash, right?
Yes, yes. He was our engineer, our co-producer, cause he'd been checking them things. We want someone who'll be sober, you know? [laughs] To deal with this situation, cause you know, the bands and the boys, we'd be like recording everything that we like. So Jumping Back Slash, he'll remove some of the things, rearrange them, and we'll be fighting in the studio. "Man, why did you remove that guitar was played by my main man, Andre?" He'd be like, "Man, everything can't come in at the same time as the vocal, man. Let me arrange it." Mathambo say, "Oh Spoko, hold, hold on" Then I light my thing and I fly with the phoenix. [laughs]
No, it's a crazy album. There's so much going on in it. I had to listen to it like 10 times before I knew where I was in it.
Yeah [laughs] You know, it's crazy, man.
Are there any tracks that really stood out for you as special?
Yeah. Yeah, most of the tracks, like last night I was playing most of the tracks that I did with the Tribal Warrior, the one that is gonna come out from my new album that is coming out, the Exerting LP.
Exerting?
It's like shaping the future. That means shaping the future, influencing the future. You know? So there is my new album, it's coming out, it's got like 21 tracks this time. One is a bonus. I play some of them last night. That's why the crowd are so wild.
Yeah, no, it was crazy. Some of them I felt a little more, not exactly house-y but they had those high sweeping high sounds.
Yes, yes. That's what the Exerting's all about.
So, what label's that coming out on?
Lit City. But I'm gonna be dropping something before. It's gonna be like two EPs, collabo EPs. And one single. I'm doing an EP with DJ Mujava, it's coming out on True Panther. It's already done, mastered, artwork is ready. I call it Intelligent Mental Institution.
Why do you call it that?
Because, my friend, he spend so many months and years in an institution where they think he's crazy. Well, he's not. He's just a genius.
Mujava was institutionalized?
Since he disappeared, he was institutionalized, man. You must watch Future Sounds of Mzanasi. The real story's in there.
Whoa. I haven't seen it yet.
Yeah, you must see it because that's where himself is gonna tell everything -- what's going down, what went down, you know? So he's back. I've got the scroll to rise him. So I'm rising him again, you know? So we did a Cape Town electronic music festival, me and him. It was crazy.
So is he at the front, being a hype-man and singing?
No no no. We DJ.
You both DJ together.
Yeah, we do back to back, me and him. So the other EP, I did it with Matias Aguayo, he's the guy from Chile, he was touring South Africa, so me and him, we did like an EP when we were in the Red Bull studio in Joburg. I've been chilling with the guy. We spend like two days in my township, two days in Joburg, doing some hardcore. So it's like the album, the EP's crazy.
Wait, so there's one EP that's you and Mujava, one EP that's you and Matias Aguayo, from Cómeme, and one single that's you and Dubbel Dutch. Did I miss anything?
And then the Exerting album. [laughs]
So what you're saying is that all anyone needs to listen to is you for the next year.
Yes, that's what I'm saying, you know. That's what I said in my last interview, what I've been spreading, like a disease. The disease has been spread. That's why I bring guys from Chile, going down to South Africa. They are scientists who come and collect the disease so that they can spread it up there. It's like, uniting, you know? Highlight, you know? Of spreading the disease. It's the disease what we're talking about right here.
So, wait, so tell me a little bit more about the album, because I remember that last time we talked, you were saying how you were still learning how to mix things for a dance floor, adding the bass, changing it up. So this is the first album that you've recorded since you've been DJing a lot.
Yes.
So how did it change things?
Maybe you must listen to all the things that I told you about that are coming out. Then you'll see another Spoko, on another level than you feel now. He's the ghost, yeah. He has awakened
So you think it's just another level?
Yeah, it's another level. My EP with Mujava, man, is like, yow yow! It's on another level. The song I did with with Dubbel Dutch, yow! I played the song there. The one that has got my voice.
You were taking the mic a lot last night. Right?
Yeah, man, I was trying to talk to them people. I'm back! [laughs]
So I mean, are you doing vocals on any of these or not really?
Not really. Not really. I'm like just banging the beats. You know me, I will punish with snares, punish you, stab you with my synthesizer. That's what I'm gonna be dealing with you.
You also had dancers last night. I hadn't seen that before.
I do that a lot. I'm the only DJ who can leave them back there and go deal with the crowd. I'm not only a DJ; I'm an entertainer. You know what I'm saying? I don't like seeing my people getting bored when I'm playing my music. I want them to know this music, the reason why I made it, is because it do that alone. You know? So even themselves, they can buy my CD and do that alone in their room, in the mirror. At least there wasn't a mirror man, for what I was doing last night.
No, it's true. I think that's really useful. It's like useful for I think a lot of people who haven't heard music like this is to see someone dancing to like
It's gonna be a problem. I can't expect them to dance for that music because they've got their own music that they've been listening. Me, I'm trying to bring something new so I've got to bring it with everything. This how we roll. If you wanna bring this, you gotta have this by your side. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, that's what I'm bringing. Like I can't just say, "Here's the music, guys." and look aside. I'll be betraying my people. I must say, "Guys, let me show how we do it where I'm from. It's far, you can't get there. It's too scary. So I'll bring it here in your side. And so I gotta show you like everything." Actually I should have brought the tent. So that they know how we do it. With those old speakers. All the shows, we got sponsored with sound but I should have brought those old speakers so they can hear how Bacardi sound on the old speaker.
Sometimes old speakers are best. They sound different.
Nah, I'm talking about old cheap speakers. [laughs] It sound like so thin. Now they hear it with the big bass and everything.
Yeah, you know, that was, I talked to Nozinja too and he was saying the same thing about how he thought it was really important to bring that dancing
Yes, yes, yes. Because me and him, we like chilled for years, you know? So we got like the same attack information. No retreat, no surrender, you know? When we go, we go all out. I mean, I can't expect to say, "Man, I wanted to buy this. The money's in the bank." But where you get the machine right here in front of me? I must come with the money and say, "Man, I want this." So that you can get convinced. You see the money, you look at the machine. You look at my money, and you look at the machine. You say, "Nah, you can take the machine, we keep them dollars." You see that's how we're like attacking in the games.
It's very important for us because we know that many people, they can't take a trip come to Soshanguve. What do they want in Shanguve? I mean, it's a squatter camp. It's a township. It's not easy. So if we want to show them that we've got something going down down there, we must show them for real, you know? We mustn't come in fake here and say, "You must watch the videos." No. We must bring ourselves. Alone, I represent the whole township cause I know if they get into the township, they're gonna find so many people dancing like the way I'm dancing, they're gonna say, "Oh wow. This Spokoland." [laughs]
That's a lot of pressure though, right? To like represent your whole town?
Yeah, but it's according to me. I can't say it's a lot of pressure because nobody ever represented the township the way I'm doing it, you know? They represent the township in another level. They don't show the people that we do have fun down there. It's not like we are poor and stressed. No, we are poor and happy, you know what I'm saying? We do dance. We do have fun, feel happy, open. We know it down there, so it's not like down there there's no life.
Because most of the people who know anything about the township, they're like "Yo, killings, poverty, everything!" No! No, no, no, no. There is those things but there is time for happiness always. We are happy always because owe no one. We ain't got no bills. We ain't got no shit, so we owe nobody, happy. That's why I want to show the people that we do it like this when we celebrate our poverty. You know? We celebrate it like this when we celebrate the township.
So the people, they like that. They want to see it. When I perform, I make sure I take them straight to Shanguve. When I perform, I want that. I take the people, they be sweating. Normal, they don't sweat but after my show they sweating, they be like, "Yo, Spoko, I wanted to collapse. I kept on dancing even if I didn't want to dance." That's what is going on, where I'm from.
So you really think it's like a different kind of celebration.
Yeah, because normally other celebrations that I've seen in some other place, they do it like nicely, slowly. Us, we do it roughly, hard! You know? That's what I mean, the music gotta be hard. I feel like maybe I was the cure for the township, to come with that crazy sound that they can now go crazy for it. Because when you listen to house music, you picture yourself driving a beautiful car, in a nice house, you know, with beautiful women. But when you listen to bacardi, you see girls climbing them speakers! That's what you see, even if it's not there, but you can see that. You saw those girls who were dancing last night. They never heard my music. But they could dance for it, they could do what I see in the township, but they are not from the townships. They are from here.
The girls on stage?
Yes. I found them there on stage, they were like so crazy.
So, I mean, one of the things that I think is really cool about your music is that it makes a space where people can embrace that, you know? Like, I know that you had said last time that when your music started going around in Shanguve and Pretoria, that people who like weren't listening to [??] as much, they started listening to music from their community?
Yeah, that's what I like, like that music started to spread like around the townships, now those who are in the eben[??] place, they start coming to the townships, listening to that music, some they got it on their phone, you know? Because them they can afford those smart phone, like "Oh, send it me via bluetooth." You send that song, it's gonna play. I was surprised, my music being played in one of the high school that is like a white high school. And I even got a song with Sam, Sam Turpin, "War Neva End", the first that I dropped, premiered by OkayAfrica. You know, he's a young boy that is been listening to my music and he's white.
That's huge, right? That's a big difference.
You know. So when I come across those things, I be like, "Oh wow. No, that's huge."
So it's really starting to spread, like people are starting to get like traction?
Yeah, it's been spreading but it's like people, they never believe that that guy's alive. Because his name is "the ghost." Maybe this music just fall from the sky. But now they can see me because I've been like performing a lot last year in South Africa and this year, doing back to back with Mujava, going Cape Town, doing the Boiler Room in Madrid and doing the Joburg, doing everything, so that brought me to the people, to the eyes of the people, you know? And in South Africa, because Joburg, I never performed so much, you know?
Last time, you said it can be hard, like people aren't always listening, you can't always get gigs. But now it's really taking off.
Yeah, yeah. Now it's like everyone, when they are planning their party, they'll be like, "There's only one guy who's missing." And be like, "Who's that?" "That guy's gonna make us sweat." "Who's that?" Them be like, "DJ Spoko. He knows how to make us sweat!" Because in December, I played in this farm. We were camping for three days. There was like 250 people only, limited. Business guys. [Laughs] Yes. Not only business guys, white business guys. Then I was like the black DJ there. The black messiah. Believe me, they were sweating. They'd be, "Yo, Spoko, man, don't make us dance like this, man. You make us throw party everyday. Cause we got money to do that." 'Cause, I mean, those guys, like in the bush, in the farm, far from everyone, they say, "We want to spend our time here, celebrate the new year here." When the year cross into 2015, I was there with them, banging the Bacardi, we crossed the year with the Bacardi, entered the new year. Them be like, "Well, blud."
That's where I got the Red Bull show that I performed in Cape Town. I met the guy who was doing that day, he was like "I know no way I'm gonna make my show without you." And when I got there, I did punish a lot. [laughs] That was capital, man, because it was back to back with Mujava. Yeah, so it was like capital punishment, not just a punishment. It was like capital punishment. They cut your hands while you are watching, cut your legs while you are watching, it's like capital. Because the place was so packed. Man, you must ask around. Some people they couldn't even enter to watch me playing. They were like watching over the window. And at the front, they were blaming me, like I'm the one who couldn't allow them to enter.
Like "Spoko, why didn't you let me in, man?"
No, they had tickets. But the place was packed now because everyone, they had DJ Spoko and Mujuva, those have time, who knows about time, they start to fill up the place now. Those who want to hear music, they couldn't enter. When they hear the music, they're like "Oh, it's Spoko! It's on!" When they come, the security be like, "No, it's packed in there. You can't go no more. Go to the other stages." Because there were like two stages.
Oh!
And they were like, "Go to the other stage." They were like, "No! I wanna see Spoko!" But the place is like gonna explode. You gonna end up now be on the stage with Spoko. Man, my friends were so crying because the wanted to see someone on that other stage and not knowing that the time is gonna be delayed a little bit, that stage with ten minutes, and I'll start this time early. So it was crazy.
So there's a lot of different music coming out of South Africa, electronic music. I know last time you said you had a vampire army following you. So if you had to give me a couple of crazy tracks that there's no way I would hear or find, what would you tell me?
I been uploading things on my Soundcloud. Now there is this young boy, they call him Jay Carson, doing this electronic hip-hop. I'm gonna be dropping his EP under my label.
You have a label now!
Yeah, the GhettoBoyz, that's the vampire empire. The GhettoBoyz.
So where's he from?
He's from Pretoria. Everything's like Atteridgeville, Mushengoville, Block 7, Ghost house, Subvona section, and the extentsions.
7:37 So it's all local.
Yeah, it's all local.
So what's his music like?
He's a rapper normally. He's a rapper. But we did this a little bit of electronics, fast beat, you know, because he's got this other young producer, Gustav. Yeah, he's like a young producer, he's so shy. But when I heard his music, it made me see myself when I was like him, shy and young, but my music, people say, "Oh, this is the shit!" I couldn't even believe they are telling the truth. Even with him, I told him, "This the shit, son. Don't be scared. This the shit."
And he produced it. So anyone else?
So, I'm still got HKD, I've still got Bizz Makhi, the fastest rapper of all time.
The fastest rapper?
He's the fastest rapper of all time, man!
I thought it was Twistah.
No, it's not. No more. No more. Man, you must hear Bizz Makhi. When the Vampire Empire rises like the Egyptian god from the East, man, believe me, people, they're gonna bow down. I'm not gonna beg them. And I'm not gonna force them. They're gonna do it on their own. And they're gonna bow down with both their knees, on the ground, until their belly touches the ground. You know what I'm saying? They're gonna do that. Because of what I'm gonna be bringing. I'm not gonna be bringing only bacardi.
So it's a bunch of different kinds of stuff?
Yeah, I'm gonna be bringing hip-hop, house, some other material. I'm even thinking of gospel.
Whoa. I know you had the gospel keyboard player, right?
Yes, Machepis. Because he's got some artists of his own that he's working with locally. So I'm thinking of bringing that thing to the internet, people start listening that we do worship God. The hashtag 666 god. [laughs]
Wait, how do you spell his name? Because I couldn't find it before.
M-a-c-h-e-p-i-s. Ma-che-pis. The name of a bubblegum in South Africa is a chepis, a bubblegum. He's chowing a chepis all day long, every day, 365 days, 24/7. When you meet him, he's always chowing a chepis so I call him "Many Bubblegums" [laughs] "Machepis". Yes. Because, when he's chowing, he's thinking. Because the guy who produce with him, the Ghosttown EP, remember? Yes. He's thinking. He's a good man. He's always by my side. He never like even move an inch. When I say, "Chaps, we attack", he's not gonna say, "No, my gun is not ready." No, he goes [gun sounds] he starts shooting. Yeah, he knows the enemy. The dance floor.
So what about other Bacardi? Are there any other good Bacardi producers?
Yes. I got Lenny Boy. Iselema, I'll send you his tracks. There's this other band of his, they call themselves Mabenten, because they are young. Yeah, they call themselves Mabenten.
What does Mabenten mean?
That cartoon of a young boy with powers. They play in South Africa, on Cartoon Network. This other boy, Ben Ten, he's got this watch, he can change to be a creature, he's got powers. But he's young. So even them, they're young but feel like they got powers. Because they can do what Spoko can do. That's power for them.
So how did you hear about them? You just heard the track?
No, Lenny Boy, I've been like working with him, singing on my track when he was young. So now he's producing for himself. He's really good.
So who else? I'm picking your brain!
I got a lot, a bunch of it. It's likes 400,000 vampires empire. You must keep on checking on the Ghetto Boyz world Soundcloud, rather than DJ Spoko Soundcloud.
Yeah, there's Tribal Warriors, me, Machepis, and Panyaza and Noe-Li. Panyaza is the guy who helped with the lyrics. Noe-Li, she sings and then she writes as well. She's the one who did the song that was premiered by David Mack, "Lerato." [sings] "Leratooo, Lerato." You must check it.
I'll check it. I'm behind, clearly. Well, there's a lot of music.
There's a lot of music, and I've got even some single tracks that I did with some other producers, artists, like I did a song with Lafawnduh, you know? It's a very tight track. She's from here in New York. I did another song with a guy of [the band] Lemonade. Yes, so it's like a lot of singles that I have. You know and I got an EP with my main man Andre the Great, the guitarist. The song that I played last night with too much of it's I cut the lyrics - guitar, like *weee wooo* I did it with Andre. We did an EP, we call it Sodom and Gomorrah. King Sodom and King Gomorrah. So I'm gonna change my name to Emperor Spoko and himself is Andre the Great. So the song that I played is the Flying Dutchman. And there is our song on my Soundcloud, I call it Summersault. It's on a guitar. You must check it.
I'll check it.
Yeah, man, it's crazy. People, they be like "Spoko, what are you trying to do man? To take over the world?" I say, "No, no, I'm just trying to explore the world."
And then take it over.
Yeah. Later. When I'm finished exploring.
How about gqom?
From Durban. Gqom. Yeah, back in the day on their place, there was a song of mine, Bin Laden, that was played too much. That's where this gqom comes from. Which means they are my descendant.
They're your children, you raised them.
According to them, they say, the first gqom song is Bin Laden. And Bin Laden was my song. So yeah, so they are my descendants.
So are you working with any of them?
Not yet, because I've been trying to hook up with Okmalumkoolkats, he's running away from me, I don't know why. He must know that I don't know why. And he must reply.
But I thought he was more hip hop.
Yeah, but we can choose that. That's what I'm planning to do with my music, to choose with anyone. Why Spoek Mathambo is rapping on the song that I did with Andre, "Sefty Belt"? It's like only bacardi. He's rapping. "Serpent with the Feet", he's singing, and it's a nice track, it became the first with singing.
"Serpent with the Feet" is a really cool track.
Yeah, because the man, Andre and me, we're just doing our thing, and Spoek be saying, "Ya niggas, you used Fantasma studio time. I gotta rap on that track." So it be like, "Okay, okay, alright."
Oh that makes sense! Were there other tracks that started with just you two? You and-
Me and Dre. When like Spoek Mathamabo is late for a session, we be doing something.
What other tracks were like that, started that way?
Uh, like all the ones that we have me and him, me and Andre, because he stays in Cape Town and me in Pretoria, we can't be in the studio together. The only time we can be in the studio together is under Fantasma's finance. [laughs]
No, I guess I was saying, were any of the other tracks on the Fantasma album started that way?
All the tracks.
All the tracks start with you and Andre?
No, all the tracks like they start like, funny. Maybe me and Spoek sometimes while Andre is late. You know, maybe, Kuru and Bravegi while me and Andre, we are late. We'll find them, Kuru playing the bass, Spoek singing. Then I'll just join in, jump in with the drumming. Andre will just start tuning his guitar.
All the tracks on Fantasma, we don't sit down and plan them, like, "Oh guys, today we're gonna do this." No. I can just get there and start playing the sampler, the drums, and then Spoek will start trying to find the gimmick. Bravegi isn't gonna lay back and relax, he's gonna be coming with the bass. Or Andre is gonna be coming with the stabbing, with the guitar. And no one's gonna just lay back and relax, everybody's gonna do his duty. And then we make a song be the way we want it, now we control the song. Because now we've got that skeleton. Mostly Spoek Mathambo just switch on and we start recording the whole crazy thing for two hours
Do you know this band Can? I'll send you a track. They're this super funky German band. And they had like a castle in Germany and they mic'd the whole thing and they just jammed for like eight hours. And then they'd go back and they'd cut it.
Yeah! That's what Mathambo does. But with him, we don't just cut. We listen and session it again, now we know as we are playing. We session it again and record it nice now, you know? So that's the other idea that in music is needed, because we never had it as like, you can just jam and record everything. Because nobody knows what's going on. You're not gonna tell us that it's recording and just freeform it and start jamming with us and everything is being recorded. But we we hear it, we always love it because you can even hear us arguing in there. You hear everything. You hear somebody on the phone, like maybe the phone rang and I stopped playing and I start talking on the phone. Now the conversation is in there. It's crazy.
7:22 So are you gonna make another Fantasma album?
Last time we met up, we did like 4 house tracks of Fantasma. The one that Spoek has been posting on the Fantasma soundcloud, you must check them. With Nongoma and Nandi Ndlovu, the sisters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kAGQhzbIkQ
Oh yeah, I think I heard one of those. Finally I heard one!
Yeah, yeah, we went in the studio, we were supposed to rehearse for our three shows - Cape Town, Durban, and Joburg. So we said, "No, we can't rehearse. We are old masters! Let's spend our studio time on recording." So we did four tracks. Yeah, it's like all house with JBL, he was involved too this time because we needed the sound that he plays.
JBL
JBL. Jumping Backslash?
Oh, yeah, yeah. It was the L that threw me off.
JBS! He's gonna kill me, man. He always say, "Spoko, don't call my name. You don't know how to call it. Just say J." I say, "I can't call you J. I already got a J in my file. Jamie. I can't call you J." So he says, "Don't say my name then." [laughs] So he's gonna kill me, man, for real. For two months he'll be like, "Spoko, don't call me." Two weeks that we worked for Fantasma album, he'd be like, "Don't call my name 'cause you pronounce it wrong!" So Jumping Backslash, he's much involved too because he's got this style of music. Have you heard his music?
Yeah, I've heard his music.
Yeah, so we wanted that fusing with my snares.
Cool.
He's fusing with my synth, you know? Yeah, so that, and then, at the other hand, Bravegi will come with the acoustic guitar this time. No more bass.
Oh, cool.
Yes. And Andre will fill out with some stabbing there, with electric guitar. Mike, this time he doesn't even kick the drum. He just play with them toms and snares and high hats on that production. And it's got this other beat thing, in the studio they had this drums dmebla's and morevas, so Michael could just goom, g-goom you know, play with the shakers chacka chacka chacka anything live, we put them there. That, it's a big project.
Cool. So is that up, or still in the works?
No, it's not on the Soundcloud. We're still working on it because we can't release anything now, we just released an album, the Free Love album.
So are you guys gonna tour in America?
That's what we've been planning, because they did Europe where I couldn't make it to go there. I was supposed to go to Texas. Well, the Embassy denied me a visa. So I lost both side. I became a loser. I was gonna go with the band to Europe, but I said, "No, you guys, you can handle this. Me, I'm gonna go to Texas and take care of spooky business." So both sides, I lost, but finally I'm here. I never fail to come to New York. And I will never ever fail to come to New York. You know?
No, it was a bummer that Islam Chipsy couldn't make it. He was supposed to be on that bill last night. He didn't get his visa.
Oh man. This visa thing, man.
He's like banging on the, he's like *waaaah*
You see, we were gonna get some sound and put it into my thing, fuse it with the disease, you know? Cause we're fusing everything with the disease now. Even the next Fantasma album, what we've been planning is to fuse too much of the disease now. Like we go Sefty Belt style. Yeah, we go Sefty Belt style. We get singers, they sing. Spoek will do the rapping, not too much, just spicy.
So more electronic.
Yeah, more electronic. We wanna go that side now more.
It's hard to jam electronic though, isn't it? I mean, doesn’t it take more composing?
No, because also you can jam anything, man. When we wanna dance, we just jam and sometimes we wanna dance to it. Then we're like, "This is it. This is it. We like it." And we don't take time not to like something. If it's wrong, it's not gonna be jammed for long. All of us, we feel it, "This is not it. We're gonna just change and go somewhere." You know?
Before Fantasma, had you really played with musicians like that, with live instruments?
No, no, no.
So you like it?
I like. I like it a lot, man. You know me, I'm not afraid of changes. I'm like Tupac and Obama. I love changes. So when you talk about changes and mention me, Obama, and Tupac. Those are the three guys I know that love changes. Spoko, Obama, and Tupac. They preach changes, always. So anything that's gonna change my life, I'm willing to do it if it changes to the good cause. Because I knew it, I can feel to it with the band.
I mean, I understand music. I don't only know music, I understand it, that at the band I'm producing at the same time. I'm not only jamming with the band. Sometimes there are some tracks, I'm not there. They jam, I sit down and listen. Say, "No, I'm not, guys. Do it. I want to listen to this track." That's why those tracks, they've got so powerful arrangement, like Basbazile. [sings] It's a track that's been played too much on BBC now, in France, from our album, the Fantasma album. I'm not there too much. I'm the man behind the curtain.
Spoek talks about this. You know, you hear the track, what can you say? You know they called us. They want to see us. But we don't know why, so let's just dance it. So yeah, Spoek, came with a powerful rap, faster. We bowed down after he rapped that fast. All of us. Everyone. Because that's where he tells you about the Fantasma. You know? We bowed down.
So what is the Fantasma?
We representing all the four corners of South Africa. It's like we've got all the tribe, in respect of we've got the colored, we've got the white, and we've got the blacks. That's how we represent South Africa. You know? Because me, I represent the north. Spoek represents the south. And then Andre is down there in the west, and then Bravegi, the east. That's like the whole of South Africa, in respect of we've got so many languages in South Africa but it's all under the blacks, those many languages. And those other two languages is under the whites. It's Afrikaans and English, those represent the whites. Andre can talk both. And even the music that he plays, the whites understand it better than us.
Bravegi's hardcore. I want you to understand it. Hardcore Maskandi player, you can hear the bass on Eye of the Sun. You can hear the bass on Sheshaspani. You can hear everywhere he plays that he doesn't even go eben[??] He's down there, KwaZulu Natal. That's why we want him in the band, you know. He's down there, he represent. Like when he plays the music, you can hear that whoever was playing bass here is a Zulu.
So growing up, did you know that all that music?
Maskandi? Maskandi was big in South Africa once upon a time. Because we had big names, we got like Ashlem Choper, he's big. There was Umfazumyama. There was, who's this old man? I've worked with him. Yeah, Isimpuzi khemis, he's the old man that I worked with him on my song that I did on Idris's album, the Mandela album, he's so legendary, you know? When Maskandi was so bad, back in the days. So we got like, there's this other lady who sings, who wrote the song, he remixed this song.
Which song?
2:37 [singing] "Hello, da da. Hello, da da." He just cut that verse, he's the Xulo Desong.
Wait, I'm lost.
2:48 You know Xulo Desong? The DJ from South Africa, he goes around with Black Coffee. Xulo Desong? He's a South African DJ, he's cool, he hangs around with Black Coffee. So he got a remix of Buship Shonga's song, you must check that. [??] he's one of that music scene, he's one of the legends, one of the tightest. So it's like I grew up listening to that and he was known as Brenda Fassie, legendary Brenda Fassie, legendary Chigo. And at the same time I could hear like legendary Dube, Hugh Masekela, all those different types of music that like I can listen because I had no choice. I had nothing of mine. If you come with Hugh Masekela, I have to listen to Hugh Masekela. If you come with Bob Marley, I had to listen to Bob Marley.
What do you mean, you had nothing of yours?
Like I was young, in a rural area. My uncle would just come with his tape player, playing Bob Marely. I had no choice, I had to listen to Bob Marley. When I go to my father, he'd be playing Peter Tosh. I go to my other uncle, he'd be playing Hugh Masekela. The whole day, you know, ancient people, they used to play one record for a long time, until it get old. You know? They don't change. Et's like if you've got Brenda Fassie, she's got a hit that he likes, he's gonna play that everyday the same time in the morning.
It's like Drake.
Yeah, it's like, if he plays it in the morning before he goes to work, you must know, half past six, I'm gonna hear Brenda Fassie. [singing] "Mi duh duh, duh duh." Every time. That's what South African ancient people used to do, when they love a song. They don't betray that artist. If they play you in the evening, they wanna only play you in the evening. If they play you in the morning before they go to work, that's your slot. Your only point. So they're gonna play you in the morning. Unlike today, today they've got so many choice of music because you can get music anywhere, MP3, CD, whatever man, bluetooth. Back then, couldn't afford the radio of mine. I can't afford then even the vinyl, because the music was only vinyl back then. My uncle would come with this vinyl, on the vinyl is written Brenda Fassie, he doesn't even want to touch. He wipe it, and put it down. [singing] "I know we can special" All day long. No rest.
That's a good song, but all day long would be a lot.
You end up observing that. You end up loving what you hate, and then it becomes good now for you. Now if he doesn't play it, you miss it. I miss that song, when it's not around, you know? Some day, you go for two days, something is wrong. You don't feel like the two days have been passed, but two days have passed but it's not around. You can't remind you that, we are on another day, fool. We're on another Brenda day. Because he's gonna play something in the morning, and when he comes back he's gonna play something else, you know? Like my uncle that used to love that disco music, he'd play Brenda Fassie before he'd go hustling, you know. When he come back, he want to relax now, he would play like soft, like Dube, reggae tunes. He loved Lucky Dube so much, but he'd stick to one tune, and he doesn't mind to stand up always to go pick up the needle, take it to that song, time and a time. It's like you are sitting here, you are playing a vinyl, when the song ends, you start over.
Play it again?
The whole day. They had time, patience. So that's why like I'm saying, I grew up seeing things that when I see them today, I say to myself, let me adapt to the ancient life. Not live this new life of just do things. I must do one thing at a time.
Sounds like you're doing a lot of different things.
No. I'm doing a lot of different things because I'm doing one thing at a time. When I'm with the band, I'm with the band. I'm not Spoko there, I'm not even gonna program one song of Spoko. Even when I'm doing something, I'm doing it as part of the band, whoever is there. I'm not gonna say, "Oh guys, I've got my own laptop now." Put my headset and be like ding ding ding when they are on break. No, when we are on break, we are all on break. We take a break, all of us, we fly with the phoenix, and we go back in. Unless somebody's late. We continue, we can't just let the studio time get wasted. We do something, but still I'm gonna do it with whoever is there.
Yeah, I don't care who's there. I got a song with Mike, he drum on my song, he do the drumming. I got a song with Bravegi, you know, I got a song with everyone. They're just new songs. I call it the Fantasma gangsters, you know? So I do one thing at a time. Like I'm saying. Brenda in the morning, Dube in the evening. It's two different artists. And during the day, hustling. You know what I'm saying? Concentrate only on hustling.
No music.
No music. Music is dead. And then after coming back, a different tune now, that's gonna relax you. Massage you, from all the wounds you got from hustling. You know?
No, it was really cool, after I reviewed the Fantasma album, I produced a show for Afropop about archives. So we were listening to a whole lot of old South African vinyl. And it was crazy, because every record I would listen to, all of a sudden it would make a connection. All these older kind of musics that I didn't know about were in that Fantasma record. Like there's a guitar tone and I'm like "Oh, that's like that Maskandi record. I get it now!"
Yeah, because, as I'm saying Bravegi, is pure, purebred Maskandi artist and producer, because he's got his own things. I was surprised when we were in Cape Town, Spoek said, "No Spoko, you know what I want me and you to do? You play only five tracks of ours. We're gonna play five songs. And then from there, we go off the stage. Bravegi and Mike, they're gonna do something. I go like, "You know me, gangster. That's the time when I'm gonna go fly with the phoenix. You say how many songs they're gonna do?" He says two. Bravegi, he heated the crowd, the Fantasma couldn't preform anymore. Bravegi was doing only the acoustic guitar and the vocal and then Mike with the drums. But he was doing this very nice music.
We had to come and convince the people that now the Fantasma, they're back. We got some songs that he convinced the people with. You know, when they hear that one, they can even forget about any artist on earth. They say, "No, no, welcome to Fantasma, welcome the Fantasma back." But he was supposed to two songs, he ended up doing like five songs. And he had to cut them short now, thinking about the Fantasma time now. You know, but it was great. So we always do that now, before we perform we let Bravegi lead the way. He's the old man. Let the elders lead the way. He's gonna do his two tracks and the crowd will go wild and the Fantasma will come and convince the people that no, we're still the Fantasma guys. We still.
So yeah, that's what I love about that band, because Spoek, I think, wherever he is, he's plotting how we gonna attack. 'Cause every time I met up with him, he's gonna tell me a new attacking formation. Last time we were doing four four two. He came back and said, "No, four four two is no good. We gotta do three six one. We don't attack too much middle fifth. We let Bravegi attack. Us, we become the middle fifth." So that's what I like about the band.
It's like they've been powering me at the same time, because the knowledge I get from the band, I can use it on my own. Like when I go to the stage, I must use the formation. Like last night I was doing like the four three three. I attacked, the middle fifth is heavy, the defending is so hardcore. You know, it's like, when I go for the back, dance dance dance, and there were chicks there, lucky, to come and save the day. You see other things, they plan themselves, if you have your own plan. Even if the chicks were not there, I had my own plan, but with the chicks, the plan worked so powerful. You know?
No, it was really good. So finally I just want to go back to what you were saying about the album. I want you to explain how you're going to control the future.
Oh, the Exerting. Yeah, I talked about the War God, I was gonna start a war. It did start a war. Imagine all the things that I've been through, like going to a city where I've never been called, in Cape Town, big city like that. But after they heard the War God, they were like, "We need the punk!" The Boiler Room never had me. With the EP they were like, "Ah, maybe he's joking. It's good but maybe he's joking." But after the War God, when I come with 20 tracks, they be like, "It's crazy!" So now with Exerting, I'm gonna bring like different ideology. It's like different music - not different Spoko music, but different softwares because now I'm on Ableton.
Whoa, you're on Ableton?
I'm on a Mac, and my Mac has got a Fruity Loops. It's the only Mac with Fruity Loops.
Phew, I was like, "You're leaving Fruity Loops?!"
I can't! Now I'm fusing them together, because there is some few sounds on that Ableton side that are not on Fruity Loops. There are a few powers that side that is not on Fruity Loops. And there are a few things that are not in that Abelton. So I use those together, so the music now sounds so evil. Now it's like the disease has got a cure. But I'm the only one who got it. You must first inject yourself with the War God, and then you inject yourself with the Exerting. Then you can see the future. It's like shaping the future. Exerting. You must look up that word in a dictionary, my friend. Exerting. And it's not like Exerting only, it's like Excerting LP. That's the name of the album. You must include that name, that is the name of the album. It's not just called LP because it's an LP, no. It's got like 21 tracks, and most of the tracks, those who have heard them, they don't stop to bow. They be like, "Yo, Spoko, yo, yo, yo!"
The new tracks yesterday sounded fucking amazing.
Yeah, because when I was creating the album, when I was on track sixteen, the rats came and eat my Apple Mac charger into like two pieces and you can't join it.
Oh no!
Yeah. So when I go to Cape Town, I met up with Alison and Alissa, they work at Okay Africa. So they gave me a charger. So I was like, "I'm gonna make a track with your name tagged on it." So my first track there on my album is "Alissa & Alison." It's here man, let me like, on the phone like just give you a clue of what I'm talking about man. Like I'm talking about some things that are right here, man. You see, this is the Exerting LP.
Hashtag 666?
Yeah, it's like 82 minutes, so this is the track that I created for those who gave me the charger to complete this mission. [plays] Okay, I'll put it on the Soundcloud so that you can link it up, you know what I'm saying. You know?
Dude, I'm pumped. I'm pumped for that album.
So it's like everything is ready.
17:10 Yeah, I would add, I don't we'll upload it yet. Speak to Spoek and Mujava first.
Yeah, we gotta do. But everything is ready. That's what I want you to tell it to the world. You a dealing with the world, let them know.
17:24 But the album, I think we're gonna do another round of things for the album I think.
Yeah, the album is gonna come, like maybe I can even push it like next year.
Cause you've got like three EPs in between.
Yeah, three things that is going on.
So I gotta wait a long time.
No, you don't have to wait a long time. You are my main man, I'll keep on sending some special boxes with mp3s for you. For yourself to listen.
This one is gonna come out with singles and videos first. Because I'm gonna do a video with the song that I did with Sam. Sam has got his own people who does videos for him, so he says when I come back to South Africa, we're gonna do a video. The script is ready. Under his own finance. He says, "Spoko, I'm gonna honor you. You've been my master for years and you did a track with me, you didn't disrespect me." 'Cause I've never disrespected no one. When he said, "I'm your fan and I'm a rapper," I said, "Yeah, you are a rapper?" I said, "I'ma send you my beat, do whatever you want." And when I send him my beat, after two days, the beat was back and I like what I was hearing. So I started to arrange the song. And when I played the song in the kitchen, as he was rapping on it, live. First time I do that, people went wild. It was so wild.
You didn't have any videos for anything on War God, right?
No, no, no. War God is not video material. It's war. It's a disease. It's not commercial, something that's gonna go there on that commercial video play. You need to have it the whole thing. You can't listen to one track and say, "The war has started." You must get the entire album, go home, fasten your safety belt on your couch, and press play. Yeah, that's war is coming. You'll see soldiers marching, man. When you listen to that music, don't you see soldiers marching? The Nazis? Don't you see them, the ghost of the Nazi soldiers coming?
It's an aggressive album.
Yeah, it's aggressive. Everyone's like, "Spoko, you're hard." I'm like, "No, I'm softening things, guys." "No, no, don't, but you're hard." You know, Jumping Backslash? He'd be like, "You are so hard!" I'd be like, "Mlungu Bash" and Mlungu bash means a white man's bash.
What does that mean, a white man's bash?
It's like it's another album of mine that's gonna come. It's already done.
Another album?
Nobody heard it. Even my manager hasn't heard it because I'm scared. I'm like dumping too much things now. I'm just only playing it in the 'hood. But I did a tape with it. On the Resident Advisory. Most of the tracks that are playing there is from my Mlungu Bash album. Like the final cut is from my Mlungu Bash with Machepis. It's me and Machepis there. Those songs. Produced by me and Machepis.
So those are on your Resident Advisor mix.
Yes, when you listen to that tape, only the tracks that you know are not the tracks from the album. Those you don't know are the tracks from the album. Except the one I did with Lafawnduh, except the one I did with Dubbel Dutch, except the one I did Aro Manyero, and except the one I did with Dave. But there are some tracks there, they are from the Mlungu Bash. It's me and Machepis.
When did that mix come out?
Last year.
There's like a bunch of mixes. You dropped a bunch of mixes all at once.
No, I told you when it's war, I'm gonna [clap] make sure. Like I drop mixes, two mixes at the same time, like 20 tracks, like people start to be confused. I'll be like, "Don't be confused. I told you. War God is here." If this war has started, I'm the God, you know? That's why I now say, "My people, let's accept the future. Let's shape the future, you know? Let's try to shape it. Let's try to do something about it."
You know, like the people, they always say, "My day will come." Me, I never waited in the wood and said, "My day will come." I kept doing what I got to do. That's why I'm here today. I kept doing it even though people said, "No, Spoko, that thing won't work. You can't be going to the States with Bacardi! you can't go to Joburg but you want to go to the States with the Bacardi?!" But here I am, I'm in New York! I didn't go to Joburg, yeah, they were right. I came to New York, where I wanted to come. Because me, my dream, I used to tell them guys, "Me, I want to take this shit abroad." They said, "What?! Are you on the phoenix again?" I said, "That's what I'm doing, I gotta fly with the phoenix and take this shit abroad. I gotta fly higher than the British Airways. Go straight where things are happening."
Because I knew it. In South Africa, things are happening. They're gonna love my music but no one is gonna be like willing to press my thing because they call it cheap dirt. Because it was done in the township, I never went down to downtown studios and spend like so much to record my things. I just bought myself a laptop and pirated software and then I came with the heat. But they don't admit. I mean, when I did Township Funk, I was using like Pentium 3, you know?
And it sounded great.
But to listen to it, I had no speakers. I was using the desktop speakers. Those with the volumes, yeah. They are so small. They don't have a bass, you can't hear no bass. It's not powered by bass.
Have you heard of ringtone rap? It happened in the mid-2000s here, people had like would play music loud on their cellphones which means that anything below a certain bass frequency, you wouldn't hear at all, so there's really strong mids cause that's what the little speakers were best for. People would make music for these little speakers.
Yeah, that's what I mean. Bacardi, you play it on these and it's like [sings] and that song is not masters. The one that I played. When I played the War God here, it's coming from those speakers, loudspeakers. Most of the people in Pretoria, each and everyone who's got a phone that's got a bluetooth that can play music - we can go there and do the research - has got Bacardi songs. Songs, not song. Whether he's an old man or old lady or a young boy or middle age. Search their phones. Believe me. I was impressed, I was inside a taxi and a lady that she's old enough to be my mum, her phone rang, here, in her breast, here, like "do do doo dododo" "Hello, how are you?" And I was like, "It's me who did this work to be corrupt like this, she's an old woman." The phone even here, on the breast, man, in the bra. She's an ancient one. But the ringtone was Bacardi. I didn't know to be proud or to be sad, I didn't know how feel. I didn't know how to feel really. I couldn't even look at her, I was like ashamed. Because I think she knows me but I'm not sure if she knows me, that I'm the one that do Bacardi. But I was ashamed. I don't go to the shebeen no more.
Why not?
Because I find old people there dancing so dirty for my music and it makes me feel like, am I the devil's son? I came here to corrupt the world? Or are they happy, enjoying? Okay, they are enjoying, because they are not fighting, but I'm not gonna come and watch this. Yeah, I find these old chicks who doesn't want to be old, climbing them speakers. Yeah, when you play one of their favorites, something like my song song Lama, the one that I played with the lady voice there - oh la la - don't play that shit! You'll make these old ladies who doesn't want to be old with the mini skirt climbing the speakers. Imagine when she climb the speakers, what you see. Alright, let's not go there. You see that's crazy. But sometimes I feel like okay, it's good. It's music. As long, if you see somebody dancing, know that that person for that moment, he done forget all the problems. If you dance, you can't be thinking of any problems.
Not if you're dancing well.
And everybody got problems. But when it's time for Spoko, you forget about problems, you enjoy. Just that one hour, yeah. It helps.
Why are worried about being the devil's son, then, if you're bringing that enjoyment?
That's what the people calls me. I'm not worried. Like even, there's this other guy, he's a Christian. He call me the devil himself. I be like, "Why are you call me the devil?" He say, "No man alive ever did what you did." I said, "What?" He said, "Stay in his room, think of new music. That's evil." I be like, "Why?" He says, "In the Bible, they says, Lucifer, he used to play all types of music that can please God himself. So you, you pleases us. Even me, the Christian, I can dance to your tune, so something is wrong." I'll be like, "No, let's not go there. I got my father, my mother, I know them. I'm not an orphan. No one lied to me." You know, so it's been crazy man.
Yeah, that's crazy.
But one thing I can say is like, I'm glad to be back in New York. Brooklyn masala. You know? Yeah man.
Okay, man, I think that's about all the questions I've got.
Thank you, Sam.
